Carrboro touts its "walkability," and it is more walkable than, say, Cary. Yet one only need hangout downtown for a little while (e.g. on the lawn in front of Weaver Streer) to notice that most folks only walk as far as the parking lot holding their personal smogmobile. Carrboro, like the rest of suburban America, still obeys Kinsella's law of land use: "if you provide parking, they will drive." We seem to be caught in that old vicious circle: we provide parking, which reduces density (since parking actively competes with other uses) and discourages transit (by enabling driving, and most Americans will drive when given the option), which encourages driving, which "requires" more parking. So it was rather discouraging to see the discussion in Kirk Ross' piece in the Carrboro Citizen.
Carrboro is fortunate to have a downtown boom that looks able to provide the density needed to fuel transit, bike, and ped. Instead
Representatives of town advisory boards said that while the [Roberson Square] project seems to match the vision for downtown, it should include more parking.
Daniel Amoni, speaking for the town's Transportation Advisory Board, said he would like to see the developer add seven more on-street spaces that were originally considered for the project, but not on the final plan.
"We like the project and we think it would be an asset to the downtown. We didn't think seven spaces would be too onerous," he said.
Planning Board chair James Carnahan said there is still a need to make sure there is adequate parking available. He suggested that the developer find off-site parking for employees.
Speaking personally, Carnahan said that while the long-term goal is to reduce reliance on the automobile, the town was not there yet and should require the additional parking.
But how will we achieve "the long-term goal" by providing more parking? Why not instead Do the Right Thing Now: go dense, and use development revenue to build better bike, ped, and transit facilities?
Issues:
Comments
with a load of drycleaning and two laptops in my car, my wife has called me
from her work to ask about eating downtown (CH or C). ok. where?
she's driving in from RTP with one box of files from work. it's now 4:48 PM.
i have a conference call with SoCal at 7, which requires a land-line.
thank goodness the kids are grown and on their own.
bottom line: two individuals need two parking spaces or we eat
supper at Southpoint and don't support Orange County businesses.
in my opinion...it's not really about parking, it's about timing.
I don't buy that needing to park = eating at Southpoint. In addition to many fine non-downtown establishments (visited TImberlyne or Elliot Road or HIllsborough recently?) there are actually lots of spaces available in downtown Chapel Hill and Carrboro, many of them for free!
BrianR and I eat out more than I would like to admit, and we usually find parking in the first or second place we look. Granted I have had decades of living here to find some of the good spots, and I'm sure the signage can be vastly improved in downtown Chapel Hill.
Go to the mall if you want, but don't blame Chapel Hill.
It seems to me that anonymous up there sounds like one of those made up couples trying to sell us on the horrors of Single-Payer healthcare.
It is easier to find a parking space downtown than at Southpoint. Since the places are so good in Chapel Hill compared to the lousy chains in Southpoint, I can't imagine any reason to go to Southpoint other than Fossil.
If you need a restaurant with parking: try Sage - Vegetarian, Oishi - awesome Sushi and japanese, or if you are really looking for something boring and mall like, there is always the sub shop.
Chapel Hill and Carrboro downtowns have too many places to mention. I used to work in the RTP area and there are some great places to eat near there, but none are in the mall.
Forgive me, but even downtown Durham was easier to navigate than Southpoint on a busy night.
If they are real, I feel sorry for them and their lack of creativity and how they are victims of exactly the type of compartmentalized society that is destroying our communities and environment.
Ruby, I don't buy it either. It sounds like a commercial for Southpoint about fictional busy people who lack boundaries of work and family.
--Freedom is not just another word
I agree with the sentiment of the author but I think it is a much bigger problem. I would love to not have to drive to WSM but my wife and I couldn't afford the available housing within walking distance of downtown Carrboro when we bought our home. I would love to ride a bike downtown but I don't feel safe riding my bike on many of the roads in town (most of which don't have sidewalks). The bus system works for my daily commute but isn't an option for evening runs to the store or on the weekend. Like the above commenter, I feel we need to work on the other issues before simply removing the parking. If we don’t then we are going to have more idling (people looking for parking spaces) and fewer customers for the small, local businesses.
On the other hand, if the issue is the usage of cars on the road, I think there needs to be a greater development of alternative transportation and incentives for commuters to not use their cars. I think we could make a bigger dent in this issue in less time with less money.
Why not give developers the option of either putting in parking spaces, or paying to connect their new developents to existing bike lanes, sidewalks, bus routes, etc? I know it's an awfully vague suggestion, but I wonder if they would take the second option given the chance and cost of property downtown?
I live about a mile from downtown, but find myself driving more than I'd like because of the previously posted reasons - lack of bike lanes, sidewalks, etc. downtown, buses not running frequently/late enough, etc. I'd like to think "build it andd they will come" would apply to public transit as well, especially in Carrboro.
I'm pretty sick of reading editorials that scoff at the supposed hypocrisies of wanting a car free life then getting into our cars and driving. I think it is the cognitive dissonance of our modern lives. Its a real state of transition from addiction towards health. So lets not give up trying to improve our habits because naysayers have.
My car dropped its transmission one day. I had an appointment in Chapel Hill the following day. I was stressing out trying to figure out what to do, but with free bus service, I was able to get cross town pretty easily.
I even had a moment to find a neat card downtown for my wife. It was a pleasant experience and I just kept walking until I knew the bus was coming and jumped on.
Did it break my car addiction? No. However, it sure did open my eyes. It took me 3 years to fully quit smoking, so I think giving up a car could be harder.
I guess it is just one day at a time.
--Freedom is not just another word
From an academic perspective, there is a lot of evidence that what drives us to our cars isn't so much that we are uninformed, stupid, or too stubborn to give up the freedom of mobility and other perceived benefits of an automobile. In fact, from a day-to-day perspective, trying to decide how to life your life, choosing a car is a rational reaction to the incentives we are being provided with and the environment in which we were raised. If you grew up riding in a car; if the cost of driving is unreasonably subsidized by tax dollars and no effort is being made to control for externalities; if the network of roads are built for cars and not for people, then maybe driving is the "rational" decision.
I would love to drive less, or even not at all, but the system that is in place makes it hard to do. But there is no way that system is ever going to change if I don't break the cycle at some point. The huge number of people who walk, bike, or take transit by choice, even at a loss of their time, comfort, and safety, should serve as a reminder to our elected officials that with the right infrastructure in place, people will make the healthy, environmentally responsible decision for their personal mobility.
I would love to ride a bike downtown but I don't feel safe riding my bike on many of the roads in town (most of which don't have sidewalks).
I HOPE you're not saying you'd bike on the sidewalk. Sidewalks are for pedestrians, and are dangerous for biking.
Car parking should be available, and expensive--it is costly, but widely subsidized, hiding the expense from the user. When parking is more than 75% full, its time to raise the rate.
I've heard parking decks mentioned at a Alderman meeting in the context of the Arts Center construction project. JUST thinking out loud here. I'm still for biking and walking. Cars and non-auto transportation aren't mutually exclusive at this time. IMHO I feel for local businesses that have lots of out of Town guests/customers.
We have Sunday events that attract people from all over the Triangle. 70+ last night to hear an excellent but depressing presentation (in Spanish) on abortion policy and the status of women in Mexico.
We love being in Carrboro and think that we are the kind of business that reflects the Carrboro community. But we are very concerned about future parking problems given that we are having problems now, before the closing of two major close by lots.
I love living in downtown Carrboro because I can walk to whatever I need ! You may have seen me pulling my red wagon to WSM or HT (why they don't give bag discounts I'll never know). People here are committed to walking or biking , compared to the last place I lived, Southern Village, where even one of the partners commutes in a Hummer in the village ! That being said, I think the town could do some things that would help us leave our cars at home, sidewalks, why is there no sidewalk coming up S. Greensboro St. ? Speed limits, does anyone do 20 mph coming up S. Greensboro ? Enforce the speed limit ! Traffic calming devices, how 'bout a couple on Weaver and Main St. before some child is mowed over chasing a ball off the WSM lawn. It's not really rocket science, just get out there and walk around the town and see what needs to be done !
As for the downtown parking situation, why doesn't the town do some sort of land swap with the South Orange Rescue Squad. Once all the approved buildings come in around them, they're not going to be able to get out of there in any timely manner. Swap 'em some town land down by Morgan Creek and build a much needed parking structure on Roberson St.
Thanks for letting me vent !
Buddy Kelly
Tom Roche, I wonder if you have ever discussed your idea with any downtown businesses. I think if you did, you would hear what Jane Stein is saying (and many other things too). You can't ignore the economic reality that downtown businesses depend on having parking available as one of several sources of customers.
Also, I think it is important to bear in mind that in downtown Carrboro's B1G zoning district, the practical limit to how much commercial space and how many residences a land owner can build is essentially only the parking issue. If you have land enough to build a building and 85 parking spaces, then it's the parking spaces that effectively determine the limit of what you can build. Let me state that one other way: in the B1G zone, there are no residential density requirements. You can build as many condos as you can fit (in 5 stories or less). What ends up being the upper bound of development is the parking.
Consequently, when a developer says "I want to build a big building but I dont want to provide parking" what they are really saying is "I wish owned a bigger lot than I do so that I could fit all this stuff on here. Would you let me do it anyway?"
Should customers who live in Raleigh ride their bike, walk, or take the bus to buy lumber at Fitches in Carrboro? Should busy workers not use their car to come to events at CHICLE? How many businesses in any town could survive on patronage from people who live within walking distance?
My basic point is there are lots of people who live many miles away who want to come to Carrboro to shop. Since I CHOSE to live near Carrboro. I'll walk. We can't put a fence around our Towns and prevent cars from coming in. No matter how much we'd like too. [Lobby the NC DOT about that one. There are so many artery roads owned by the State.]
At the same time we can promote sustainable living and business by promoting walking, biking, and public transit. Within our own jurisdictions. (Both Towns ARE doing this!) It would be nice to have regional agreement/partnerships. Is there a Triangle sustainable counties/cities/towns org?
This is not an either or situation. I find it silly for people to be so binary here. Yes we all have different ideas about how to build a better planet. Our Towns must transition to our ultimate ideals. That will not happen overnight. I believe our local elected officials are actively working on this. (sometimes they do need prodding) We do not live in a vacuum. There are factors outside our Towns that effect us mightily. (note: I feel odd being put in the position of "defending" old business models. I want to see them change too. But at what cost? I think we can transition aggressively to eco-friendly biz models without believing our neighbors livelyhoods must "fall".)
Mark Chilton wrote: You can't ignore the economic reality that downtown businesses depend on having parking available as one of several sources of customers.
Tom Roche wrote: Sure I can!
Okay, so you can. But I can’t and won’t ignore the existing downtown businesses.
Tom Roche: Consider the impact of increasing gas prices: as they keep going up, fewer folks are gonna be able to smogmobile into downtown from elsewhere anyway.
True. I think Carrboro is very much oriented toward limited parking in the downtown. No one on the Board of Aldermen is advocating for copious free parking.
Tom Roche: Finally, morally, weigh increasing environmental damage vs. decreasing car traffic to downtown businesses: The planet must come first.
Well, the generally recognized principles of sustainability actually call for solutions that value people, the planet and profits together. I think that those sorts of solutions do exist. But such solutions are going to involve some amount of parking in downtown Carrboro as we transition from an automobile oriented society to a bike/ped/transit one.
I'll have to decline your invitation to debate the particulars of the Roberson Square development. We are in the process of reviewing that development application and I need to reserve my discussion of the permit application for the meetings of the Board of Aldermen.
Tom, as I say, I can't really discuss the specifics of the Roberson Square development. By the way, I don't think you can really say what I am "insisting on" until after I vote on the project. In any case, that is a quasi-judicial matter that I will be discussing at the next hearing in late February.
In the meantime, I am not sure why you are treating me (and Brian) with such hostility. Why do you refer to me as "Chilton"? My name is Mark and you are welcome to call me by that name.
I understand that you are trying to advocate for your views (and I appreciate that), but I would ask you to be a bit more respectful of the viewpoints of others on this site. Is it possible that there is something valid in my viewpoint? I think there are lots of things that are valid in yours.
You seem to think that I am some sort of environmental demon. Certainly you are treating me that way here. If that is your thought, then I can tell you that you don't know me or my work.
You are dead on. Those of us who have a little more of an understanding of economics and people realize that parking spaces can't be rented, but extra space in a building can.
It is ironic that someone who is anti-car, is pro-developer. If we give developers a pass on parking, it is only going to increase pollution.
The hostility is because Tom doesn't have a leg to stand on. I wish him well, but he is doing exactly what the anti-public transportation people want by alienating folks.
In spite of what Tom and Jesse Helms think, the average folks in this area support sensible development and realize that the DC Metro wasn't built in a day...
Tom - Verbum sapiente satis est is key to this one
also
you may want to remember
En boca cerrada no entran moscas.
I mean, let's be real here. You are alienating everyone who might support you, which is sad.
There are some interesting points here, but by talking down to everyone people are pretty much going to either ignore you or think poorly of you.
I basically supported your argument, but I think the Messenger can kill the message.
I wish you well, but you can't throw around a Latin phrase and assume absolutes. The only absolute is people hate to be attacked or talked down to and you seem to be very good at both.
You remind me a petulant child who is only happy when provoking a response for the sake of getting someone's goat.
Well you have succeeded.
--Freedom is not just another word
Tom:
You have no answers, so you reduce the discourse to cursing?
You spend an entire message personally attacking me, but you never once answer my argument.
You have never cited real sources - fake laws don't count and ceteris paribus is Latin phrase of limited meaning.
You haven't proven your argument, so you have cursed me out. Wow.
There is no real answer to your questions, because they are simply rants of someone with too much time on their hands.
The only point of fact in your reply is wrong. You initially started by complaining about parking for a development.
The Development does not allow enough parking.
You say not to do that, because it is based on a flawed theory.
So this space is going to be built and you want it to be built without parking.
Finally, by your definition - parks, farms and concert halls should not exist because they are not "dense" developments.
You have succeeded in insulting me at least 3 times and cursed at me. Personally, I don't know this, but I think you might need to do a little more Yoga and go for a long ride to meditate on how you treat other people.
Only the immature or a child would result in a personal attack when their argument is lost.
You have reduced a valid discussion to a flame war.
Que lastima. -yes I know it is Spanish
:)
--Freedom is not just another word
I have been trying to think of a local elected official that is more personally and politically comitted to the environment and the future sustainability of this community than Mark Chilton. A few may tie him, but in my opinion none exceed his level of environmental advocacy.
I think you've stated your case quite thoroughly, Tom. Some people don't agree with you 100%, although we agree with a lot of what you have had to say. Your continued arguing with Mark is not adding anything productive or useful to the discussion. I recommend that folks not reply your comments unless there is some new information or insight to be contributed.
Mark has every right to bristle at the tone and substance of these rebuttals.
It's gotten to where I actually feel guilty living in Old Carrboro (downtown), where the issues of Walkability and Affordability seem utterly incompatible. The fact is, most Carrboro residents live too far to walk or bike to stores and restaurants and clubs from home. This lament is understandable. But they patronize Carrboro businesses anyway, whether out of loyalty or convenience, and parking is not a large hassle.
The Town of Carrboro must court new businesses whose employees and clients/customers must be able to work here and shop here and eat here... and park here.
Catherine DeVine
Fundamentally, you are right, but I think indicting the majority of the population that drives is probably not going to win you many friends. I would rather show people the benefits of the alternatives to driving than insult their chosen mode of transportation.
Like it or not, people choose to do what is easy for them. Driving is easy. It doesn't require thinking and while everytime I see someone sitting in a car idling in front of building, I want to scream at them for wasting resources and personally destroying the environment by their own lack of awareness, I find it best to keep fighting the good fight and asking politely if they were aware their car was running and talking about how much gas is.
While it is correct to declare we go dense, we have a problem here. First, not every car is a "personal smogmobile" (Priuses are a cool first step).
Second,we have to undo the nightmare brought on us by the "Greatest Generation" of the subdivision. Someone should realize there is a problem when every neighborhood has to have speed control devices and simply allowing people to park on the street would slow cars down... but that is another fight.
Demonizing people for using cars, when the Federal Goverment won't update CAFE standards, encourage bio-diesel or even force Coal-Fired plants to have better filters is missing the point slightly.
Unfortunately, on a micro level this means that Carrboro cannot do as much as it would like to do, but it is fair to say that it is doing a lot compared to the rest of the US.
While I don't disagree with your premise, I think we have to strike a balance and start by rezoning some of the areas like the PUD (what a great name) that I live in. Fixing the Urban Core is only part of the solution, the broader solution would be to drop some infill small commercial into these Cary style housing areas.
People will howl, but when they can get up on a Sunday morning and walk to the local coffee shop, read a paper and not have to get in a car, find a parking space or fight traffic, I think they might like it.
Having lived in two PUDS - one in Maryland and now in Chapel Hill - I will never do it again. Life is too short spend this much time in a car, which is why we chose Chapel Hill over Cary in the first place.
It would be better to start the process of real reform and move away from 50's style zoning entirely, back to something more sensible and balanced that discourages car trips and encourages walking and that cannot be done as long as development is only confined to downtowns and strip malls.
Your point is correct. Failure is inevitable with this current arrangement, but limiting parking is not going to fix it. If only it were that easy.
Let's start by breaking the zoning habit and then we won't need the parking.
--Freedom is not just another word